Summary

Concrete secondary containments and the coating systems that protect them are vital to safe, clean, compliant operation in any facility handling harmful or toxic commodities. But if that's the case, then why are they so often left in disrepair? Chris Imms, President of Helena, Alabama-based Imms Industrial Coatings, joins The Red Bucket to help close a knowledge gap impacting facility personnel and coating contractors alike.

Also, Chris reveals which Halloween candy he believes is an act of cruelty.

Timestamps

Click to follow along with the transcript:

• 00:00 - Introduction
• 01:38 - Secondary containment purpose and performance
• 04:27 - Secondary containment structures are often overlooked
• 06:30 - A simple test for containment integrity
• 07:35 - Real consequences of a failure
• 10:24 - Contractor knowledge, responsibility, and liability
• 12:42 - The challenges of protecting concrete
• 14:36 - Building expertise through education and experience
• 18:42 - Educating facility owners and engineers
• 20:39 - The importance of listening and collaboration
• 22:37 - Continued workforce training and development
• 23:53 - The coating manufacturer's role
• 26:15 - The four questions

Transcript

Introduction

Toby Wall: These two things are true at once: Concrete secondary containment structures are absolutely essential to safe operations and facilities handling harmful or toxic commodities, and the proper upkeep of these structures is often misunderstood and frequently ignored. Today on The Red Bucket, an experienced contractor helps us explore why that is and what the industry has to gain by some old-fashioned listening and learning.

I am pleased to welcome Chris Imms of Imms Industrial Coatings to The Red Bucket. Chris, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Chris Imms: I appreciate the time.

Toby: I'd love for you to give us a quick download on yourself and on Imms Industrial Coatings before we get to our subject.

Chris: I am, uh, President of Imms Industrial Coatings. I'm also a project manager, worked here for about 30 years. Um, we do... We're a heavy industrial contractor. We work in the oil and gas, we work in power, we work in manufacturing. Uh, we get exposed to a lot of different, um, substrates and tasks. Um, we've been around for 53 years now. Um, we are a union contractor, and we've used Carboline for years, and it's just we have a lot of experience in this world, it seems.

Secondary containment purpose and performance

Toby: Which is a good thing and brings us to the reason why we wanted to have you on, because there's some experience that you all have that not everybody has. More specifically, this is the subject of secondary containment. So, the whole reason we wanted you to come here was, uh, earlier this month, Carboline had a LinkedIn post on that subject, secondary containment, and then you reposted it, and you shared a comment, which we will get to in just a minute. Um, but it was based on what you said that made me think, "Oh, here's, here's someone with some perspective that the rest of the industry probably needs to hear." Before we do that, not everybody understands secondary containment. If you had to summarize that in one or two sentences, how would you, how would you summarize secondary containment?

Chris: I'm creating a pool to handle your mess.

Toby: What, what kind of mess could we be talking about here?

Chris: You know, a lot of these secondary containments are critical. Um, they were designed and engineered a certain way so that they could contain a spill from a vessel, a tank, a process. They were designed this way, and they're not maintained, is one of the things we often see.

But they were designed and made to create a pool in which you get 72 hours to clean up your mess, or your disaster, or your small leak. They're generally a simple idea. They're generally a easy to maintain idea, but it just doesn't always happen.

Toby: And you say that you have 72 hours to clean it up. Where is that coming from? Because that's not really a suggestion, right?

Chris: That's not a suggestion. Most of the chemicals, uh, and the linings that you see out there, they're, they're geared towards allowing, you know, 72 hours before the actual coating begins to break down. So I'll often tell people, "You've got three days before this thing becomes a problem." As long as it's maintained correctly, as long as you've created that pool, you will have time to clean up before you create an environmental issue, before things start leaching in the ground, spilling over into other processes, et cetera. There's a lot of weight on these things, a lot of responsibility, uh, for these containments.

And when you say containment, I mean, it's in the event of a spill, it's in the event of a leak, a process error. Um, they're completely designed to hold those. They're critical to the operation, and they were designed and engineered originally to these structures be- just in case. A lot of times, too, though, you've just got general spillage, general leaks that occur during their operations. They also hold those as well, um, and that's what they're designed to do.

Secondary containment structures are often overlooked

Toby: We published some content on our company's website, and you made a comment, I will quote you: "It is the number one item overlooked and passed over by facility managers and engineers." And I, I wonder if you could take it from there. How have you arrived at that conclusion?

Chris: 30 years of experience, 30 years of walking around, 30 years of seeing budgets get cut, 30 years of seeing, hey, just put some enamel on there. It's just paint. Uh, it's just gotta hold it a little while. Um, 30 years of let's just kick this can down the road, 30 years of watching them be left alone, uh, not maintained, not budgeted for, not... And not fully understanding what their intent was.

You have a structure that was designed and built, but yet you're ignoring its purpose, and it's obvious what it's there for. Um, and I constantly see it with every level of customer, from the richest to the poorest, to the most technical, to the most archaic.

Um, they are just completely ignored, um, because they're not sometimes cheap to rebuild. They're not... They've gone too far, um, or the coatings are too expensive in, you know, in their view.

Um, but also the cleanup's more expensive, you know. Um, the results can be catastrophic in a lot of sense, um, not just a nuisance.

Um, and they're just completely passed over. Those... For 30 years, I have seen these things be ignored, um, and in, sometimes in some very intense environments like the chemical industry, especially. I... You just don't even know how some people are getting away with it sometimes. It's a continued process, and it's a lack of education, I think, in the intent of these containments, the intent of the, uh, original design, um, and it's a lack of knowledge about what they have there.

A simple test for containment integrity

Toby: Talk about the, the, the test that you give to engineers that starts this whole process.

Chris: It's a very simple question that I ask them, uh, when they're looking at their containment. I simply ask them, "Where does our water go when it rains?" And they'll say, "In the ground." I say, "What do you think your chemical or process is gonna go when it hits that containment.

It's gonna follow it straight into the ground. Or they'll think they have adequate containment, and I'll ask them, "Do you have a sump pump?" "No, we don't." "Well, why isn't it holding water? It's supposed to hold water. If it's gonna hold the chemical, it's gotta hold water." And then it, the education and the questions start to happen.

Um, you often will bid a job to do it right, and you'll come in behind somebody. You'll bid a job, six months later show back up for another, another bid meeting. You'll look, "Oh, you got your containment done." "Oh, yeah, we sure did." I said, "Man, it rained last night. Where's your water going? Why isn't it holding water?"

So that's the number one question, and it's a simple answer, and it always follows the same path of knowledge.

Real consequences of a failure

Toby: Do you have any real, tangible examples from your memory of when there was a failure to, just to drive home to people listening, this isn't just on paper? Really awful, terrible things can happen if secondary containment systems are not maintained or are not taken seriously.

Chris: It was one particular case where a vessel, the tank, was not maintained, and the reason it wasn't maintained is because somewhere down the line someone had the idea that they were going to change products. And when they changed the product, the liner inside the tank could not handle the product, so it rotted the, the vessel out and caused a leak.

And that leak then went into the containment, which did not have the proper lining, or barely any lining existed anymore. And there was separation from the concrete walls, and the spill went right into the ground. They cleaned up what they had, and they just abandoned the vessel and abandoned the containment, just left it there, and continued operations elsewhere.

Um, when all of that could've been avoided by simply, "Okay, we're gonna switch products. What's the temperatures we're gonna have in here? What do we have in here now?" And a simple consultation to someone like, you know, Carboline or myself saying, "Hey, what do we got here? Is this gonna handle it?" It's just ignored or not ignored in a sense; it's just looked over.

Like, the engineers or the process managers just simply said, "It's gonna be okay," and just simply switched over. I've also seen people be proactive when shown and educated a little. Um, one client had gaps in their walls between the s- the, uh, foundation wall and the floor, and you had about an inch and a half there.

Um, and we showed them those inch-and-a-halves on a very large containment. They sat on top of a lake, um, a very pretty lake, a very large lake, and the chemicals they had in there could've caused great damage. Could've gone instantly into the groundwater, right into that lake. Uh, they had enough product there that it could leak down.

Um, and by sh- educating them and showing them, I mean, the, the containment never had a lining on it at all, ever, and they had taken on more chemicals and more processes over the years, and they were all ears. And fortunately for us and them, you know, they were on board with getting that corrected. Um, they've not had any leaks since then, um, since we applied that, so they were fortunate.

You know, we were fortunate to get the project. But, um, we found that it was just a simple lack of knowledge, um, of what a containment is, and it's, it's a major lack of education out there on how important they are.

Contractor knowledge, responsibility, and liability

Toby: From Carboline's viewpoint, uh, we've seen the same that you have seen, which is that facility personnel aren't always grasping secondary containment or, or, you know, its importance.

Those aren't the only people who face that knowledge gap, and I think you and I agree here that the contractor pool also does not universally have a good grip on this. They don't always understand them, uh, as well as I think we and I think you wish they did. Is that a fair statement?

Chris: You know, every contractor's different. I can't speak to them. Some are smarter than others, or some are more educated than others, in the sense of what they're getting into in their environments. A lot are moving into different industries to take advantage of budgets or take advantage of work without the education of, "Hey, what do I got here?"

And the customer, like I said, will ask, "Hey, just put some enamel paint on it," and they'll do it without the knowledge of their responsibility and their liability if there is a leak. Because there's a lot of, been a lot of occasions that I will turn down the project and refuse to do it because they're not going to do it right.

And I feel like I have a liability in that. If they do have a leak, they're going to come back to me, and they're going to say, "Hey, you didn't provide a containment for these guys like you said you'd do, were." And then you're responsible for that leak because you didn't do it right. Even though you didn't cause the leak, you were, you were the one that was supposed to catch it.

There are a lot of contractors that need to know a little bit more about them. Um, and you often have, um, painters and concrete guys can be separate beasts. Sometimes they don't meet. Um, sometimes they don't have a lot of experience. Um, for instance, concrete guys don't know much about steel, and steel guys don't know much about concrete, or they don't, they're not exposed to it lo- for a long enough period of time to learn about it, either one.

So cross-training your employees, um, and creating those guys that can work both in steel and concrete is very important, and that comes down to education and training.

The challenges of protecting concrete

Toby: Yeah, you're, you're getting to, uh, some territory that I wanted to get into next anyway, especially your remark about the, the concrete guys knowing what they know and the paint guys knowing what they know, and sometimes there is overlap, sometimes there's not. Concrete i- is a very highly technical substrate. I think it is a substrate that, if you looked at everybody in the protective materials industry, they probably are less familiar with concrete than they are with steel - I'm painting with a really broad brush here - and understanding how to protect it. That, that understanding just isn't quite where it is with regard to steel.

Chris: Absolutely correct. Concrete is a living, breathing organism. It's ever-changing. It has a lot, I guess you could say, tricks of the trade. It has a lot of, um, problems. You can be trained on concrete just enough to know that, hey, I shouldn't coat concrete, uh, because it's so particular, but there are ways to get around that.

Um, but steel and concrete are completely different animals. Um, but yet they share the same responsibilities, and they also share the same coatings. So their applications are different, but it's all achievable. It's all achievable with time. It's all achievable with education. It's all achievable with experience.

But concrete itself is a very difficult animal to coat correctly. Um, and you also have to have a pretty good working understanding of how the structure was built and why it was built, um, and when it was built, because you'll often see protections that aren't there. Moisture is often a problem, uh, even when it's not existent. Moisture vapor transmission's a real problem with concrete, and you have to, um, you have to account for that.

Building expertise through education and experience

Toby: So there was a point in the history, somewhere along the timeline of your business, where the decision was made, "Hey, we need to understand this. We will go after that education. We will try to get that knowledge so that we can take these kinds of jobs and do them the right way." What, what was it that led to that? How did you decide, "We need to up-skill, um, so that we can be proactive, constructive players in this, in this specialty," if you will?

Chris: The first time I was asked to do a concrete floor, I realized what little knowledge I had. I was very much a steel guy. I was trained and taught and got my hands dirty on steel. Um, but once I started looking at concrete, it, it honestly scared me because I didn't understand it fully. So I decided I'm gonna take some classes and I'm gonna get my hands dirty with it. Uh, and I'm gonna start learning from others so that we can take on these projects, because there's a lot of concrete in this world, and there's a lot of concrete that needs to be taken care of in this world, and I need to be able to handle it for my customers.

I need to be able to be a one source for them so they don't have to call a separate contractor, and we have two teams trying to do the same project, uh, is really where it came from. Um, we wanted to be the guy they call for anything to do with coatings, and again, a lot of concrete in this world.

Toby: When you said that there were classes you individually went and took, what were some of those? Like, what was... Who, who sponsored them and what the subject matter was?

Chris: Well, the very first one I took was a NACE concrete coating class. Still got the book behind me. Um, and that was the class. It was about a four or five-day class that I came out of thinking, "Boy, you really shouldn't coat concrete," you know?

Um, because it's so difficult to do, and there's so many things that can go wrong. Um, but that also set me off into understanding even more. So I would sit down with my vendors and often take educational classes to begin to familiarize myself more with concrete. And that's where it started. Um, and then I became a, uh, concrete coating inspector through SSPC.

Because of, uh, all the concrete coating work we were doing, I wanted to be able to talk to inspectors on their level and know their language and what they're looking for, and also be able to inspect my own work to make sure I was doing the right things.

Toby: If you fast-forward to today, now after having built up this knowledge base and built up this experience base, what would you say the impact on your business has been now that you've added this, call it this tool in your toolbox?

Chris: Oh, we've probably added about 30% to our revenue stream, um, simply because we can now coat concrete successfully and feel confident, um, in what we're doing. It's opened up a new world, not just through secondary containment into flooring as well. Um, there's a lot of floors in this world, um, that are often handled by specialty contractors that only handle concrete floors.

Uh, so we got into that business. It was a simple jump, to be honest, um, into that world. We just had to understand concrete itself a little bit better and the techniques required to coat it. Um, and secondary containments are a big, big part of our business now. Um, and there's a lot of opportunity there because of what I've seen over the years of them getting ignored.

Um, and we feel like there's a huge opportunity there, but we've got to educate our customers and sit down with them, let them understand what they actually have there, and the responsibilities that they have with those containments.

Educating facility owners and engineers

Toby: You said earlier that you've had the chance to be the one providing that education to customers. I assume that they're receptive to it. Like, once you have their ear and you can tell them, "Here's what's going on," do you see the light bulb go off in their own heads?

Chris: Yes. I have to protect my customers from themselves in spite of themselves. I often say that my job is to make a process engineer, a project management engineer, or just a general engineer in general look really good, because they cannot be knowledgeable in everything that they do.

It's, it's very difficult. Um, and since we're such a specialty in the sense of coatings, uh, we're just one part of their world, um, we have to often sit down with them, say, "Hey, we see this. We think it's a good idea that you look at it," and explain to them why-the basics, um, and what we're trying to achieve. Um, not just to spend their money, um, but to provide them a service and a knowledge. And hey, I'm here to make them look good, and that's what I want to do.

Toby: Has the industry provided sufficient learning materials for someone in your shoes?

Chris: There's a... There's plenty of resources. You can be trained, you can be taught, and you can educate yourself to go out there and educate others and bring that knowledge to bear, and it comes down to experience and actually doing the work, getting your hands dirty with the products and understanding them.

And always be open to hearing from your vendors about new things that have come out, new, new processes, new linings, new coatings, whatever, new resins, whatever the case may be. It's simply a matter of deciding, "I want to learn." And you can go out, and there's plenty of resources out there, especially with the internet these days and, uh, online education, um, and artificial intelligence coming down the pipe with that. Um, there's, there's plenty of opportunity to educate yourself.

The importance of listening and collaboration

Toby: And do you think that that's the right balance of responsibility? You know, 'cause we're talking about how these- Facility personnel don't always know, and we're not saying we expect that they should. They shouldn't be the expert on concrete or coatings that protect it. But you're able to, to find out what you don't know and go fix it. What should they be doing? What should facility folks be doing so that they know what they ought to know?

Chris: Listening. They need to listen. Um, that you're not just there... I mean, you're creating work for yourself. There's no question there.

We're not doing this for free. Um, but more listening to your, to your contractor, the contractor being knowledgeable and being open to, "Hey, what are we doing wrong? What can we do better?" Um, and the back and forth between you and your customer, the contractor and the engineer, the contractor and the budget manager, of "Here's what we gotta do. Here's how we have to do it. Well, how can we f- make this work in a perfect world or an imperfect world to fit both of our needs?"

You know, "Hey, you guys gotta have enough time to do this. What do I need to give you? But you guys gotta understand we have a process, and we're here to create XYZ." Um, not just, you know, we do our containments.

How can we make this work together? So it's, it's a listening game from both of you, and contractors know that. But it really, you need more open-mindedness and more education on the process side and the ownership side because that's where it's severely lacking. Because it's honestly just like a big question mark in their head.

They're like, "What are you talking about? I thought this was fine. There's concrete walls here." No, man, this is a sponge. This is a very, um, porous rock at best that's gonna absorb everything. Once they understand what the kinda substrate it is, they begin to open their minds like, "Oh, my gosh, I do have to do something here."

Continued workforce training and development

Toby: What role do you think the manufacturer should, should play here? You know, as far as the, the, the type of help that we can provide, what do you think that should be?

Chris: A lot of it's already done. You're always there, you know, as a resource to provide us with technical information. But also, when you do get the opportunity to sit with the owner and the engineers, uh, conferences and, and technical symposiums, I guess you could say, you know, those, those opportunities you should always take the shot of talking to them about their secondary containments.

Just taking every shot you can, because I've seen planned, uh, symposiums, uh, get, you know, canceled because they didn't think this was an important subject, uh, and customers not wanting to listen. But being there and providing honest information, and not just simply from a Carboline perspective, but from a general overall purpose and the importance of it, and how keeping up with it can save you a lot of money down the road without having to completely rebuild the the entire containment or the entire floor, maintain it and teach them about how that can be a cost savings and how it can be an environmental savings and how it can be a regulatory savings for them.

The coating manufacturer's role

Toby: I would venture to say that's really the, the moral of the story, if you wanna put it that way, is from almost any angle you look at it, getting this taken care of, having an open mind, listening to the experts such as yourself, is gonna save you lots of money.

Chris: And can save your fanny down the road when a, when a disaster strikes or a minor incident occurs, 'cause they do happen.

And the other thing is, I don't think I mentioned this, is you have a lot of changeover in this world, a lot of, uh, managers getting moved around. So it's a constant education that has to take place from the contractor, from the vendor, and from the owner itself. There's so much, um, turnover in the world and, and in our industries, in all of industry, that it's just a continual process that has to be maintained.

You know, education's a constant thing throughout our lives, um, so we have to make sure that we're always in front of the customer, always in front of the owner, letting them know, especially when we get someone new, "Hey, this is some of the things," even when they don't wanna listen. Uh, sometimes you have to be persuasive.

Um, and having those resources there and leaning on each other, and it's kind of a teamwork, a mentality that has to take place. I would say one thing we did not discuss, and it's very important, is employee training, training of the craftsmen. Um, you can't just have specialty people. You've gotta get more out of one guy than you used to u- use two for, and it sounds redundant and kind of simple, but they've got... also gotta have the opportunity.

Um, and that's one of the big things that we work on, um, is continually to train our guys and get them the exposure, to get the younger guys in there and show them, and continue to train them and teach them about, uh, the importance of everything. And that, look, guys, all of this is an opportunity for you to have, to have work, to make a good wage.

You know, we're creating more work for you by cross-training you, but you've also gotta have the opportunities, and that's up to management to go out... You know, my job is to go out there and sell these projects so that I can get my guys those opportunities. Um, but training is a huge component to this, and not just being stuck in your world. That way, you've got guys constantly on hand that can handle these projects when they come up.

The four questions

Toby: That's all very well said. Now, we... I didn't tell you this, uh, when we arranged to have this recording, so I'm gonna apologize in advance, but we, we have a section or a segment on this little program called the four questions, where I ask you silly questions that don't relate whatsoever to what we've just been talking about.

So I've got four questions prepared. Are you ready to answer the four questions?

Chris: Sure.

Toby: Okay. Question number one, and this is, I guess, a bit of a two-parter. Part one: Am I correct in assuming you will cheer for the Crimson Tide?

Chris: Absolutely.

Toby: Okay. Part B, and I am sorry if this is painful for you, but w- can you think of something nice to say about someone else in the SEC?

Chris: Uh, LSU, um, they're gonna win the party every time, even if they lose the game. Best food and best tailgates I've ever seen. They are gonna win the party.

Toby: Which is a reputation that I know folks care a lot about, so good for, good for LSU.

All right, here's question number two. You, you are in Alabama. What is the top vacation destination in Alabama that no one knows about?

Chris: Dining in Birmingham, going out to eat.

This is a big going-out-to-eat town. We outkick our coverage in food and restaurants. Um, I would put us up against any city in the country. Um, we have a lot of people that do understand it. They come from Atlanta, they come from Nashville, they come from, uh, Texas just to come here and eat. We have absolutely amazing homegrown restaurants where young restaurateurs come here because of the availability of, of space, uh, labor, uh, inexpense of starting a restaurant here in town, and they move in and they start their own menus and their own restaurants, their own style. So if you're a foodie, this is a big foodie town. Um, I, I'm telling you, I'd put it against New York, I'd put it against Los Angeles, I'd put it against Chicago. Pound for pound, we will take them on.

Toby: It wouldn't be the four questions on The Red Bucket podcast if I wasn't asking about food and, and you led me into these next two questions perfectly.

What do you think is the worst Halloween candy?

Chris: Candy corn. I mean, that just screams Great Depression poverty if I've ever seen it. Candy corn's the worst, and Tootsie Rolls. Those are horrible. That's just, that's just cruel. That's just mean. But, uh, God bless the people that give away the whole Reese's cup. You know, when you get the two cups, not the single.

Toby: Sure, yeah.

Chris: Those are, those are the winners. Um, I, I... One of the best Halloween trick-or-treats I ever saw was a guy was giving away beer and hot dogs. He was making hot dogs in the front yard and handing those out to the kids, and, uh, that was a home run.

Every year, this one guy would make... He'd have beer for the adults and hot dogs for the kids, and that was, that was his candy, was hot dogs, and the kids loved it.

Toby: Depending on how the weather is in St. Louis, you'll see folks sitting out. Like, they'll bring their, their fire pits up to their driveway and, and sit around.

If it's cool enough, they'll have a little campfire and then do their, do their trick-or-treating that way. So I think the, the hot dogs would be a perfect complement to something like that.

Chris: Yes, absolutely. I love Halloween night, especially when it's on a weekend. It's perfect weather usually here in the fall.

I mean, uh, we're very fortunate that time of the year. I think October's probably the most ideal time to come here. Not only do you have football, but you have literally perfect weather with no humidity, and it's just magical.

Toby: Okay, last question: The best Thanksgiving side dish. What do you think?

Chris: Oyster dressing.

Toby: You're gonna have to enlighten us on that. I don't know if I've ever heard of that.

Chris: It is cornbread dressing, like you would have the turkey stuffed with, but it is made with what we call the liquor of the oyster, the juice, in other words, that it sits in, and the actual oysters themselves. It is, you make your cornmeal, I guess, dressing in your, with your onions in it, and then you will incorporate oysters and bake it.

Um, you don't bake it inside the turkey. You bake it separate in a, as a, in a pan. Um, and it's got an interesting history. My grandmother used to make it. They're from Mobile originally. Um, in the 1930s, it kind of appeared in a, in a recipe book. It was always considered, like, this really expensive thing to have, like, uh, something that only rich people would eat.

You know, oh, this is a fine dining experience, I guess you could say, for Thanksgiving, um, that people in, uh, wealthier parts of the country at the time, uh, were enjoying. And so being close to the water, uh, then, you know, the, the Depression's going on, but they had access to oysters. I mean, shoot, they could get oysters.

They could get a bushel for a dollar back then. And so it was a big thing for... All the women started to make this for their, uh, households because it was such a, I guess, popular dish, and it was so easy for them to access fresh oysters. And so it became a tradition in our family to have oyster dressing on Thanksgiving, and it is absolutely amazing. Um, e- even people that don't like oysters like it.

Toby: It sounds wonderful. I, I have never heard of it. Coming from the middle of the country, we don't have... If you can eat it if it came from the water, but it might not be any good.

Chris: Right. It may be s- may be stowed in a truck for too long. But, uh, yeah, it is a very popular dish on the Gulf Coast, um, and up here.

Toby: I think I might go hunting for that recipe and have to give it a shot.

Chris: Yeah, give it a shot. It's a different twist, and it is, it is decadent, to be honest with you, would be the proper word for it.

Toby: With all of that said, Chris, this was a great conversation. We're really glad that you could join us today and, and share what you know about concrete and secondary containment and also the delicacies of Thanksgiving side dishes from the Gulf Coast.

Chris: There you go. I appreciate the opportunity. Um, it's been wonderful talking with y'all, and, um, I appreciate the time.