Summary

Fluoropolymer-based finish coats are the premier performers for elevated water storage tanks in exterior exposures. The specialty FEVE resin on which they are based withstands intense UV radiation, high winds, and intense precipitation while holding gloss and color for decades. And while all that comes at a cost, water industry expert Jeremy Sukola and chemistry nerd Kristen Blankenship explain how that cost represents a long-term investment that boasts a handsome return. In this episode of The Red Bucket, learn the chemistry, use cases, and regulatory considerations of fluoropolymer topcoats.

Also, Kristen ponders the Atlantic Ocean from the top of a cliff, and Jeremy shares a strong opinion about spaghetti sauce.

Timestamps

Click to follow along with the transcript:

• 00:00 – Introduction
• 02:00 – A brief history of fluoropolymers
• 04:41 – Composition and properties of fluoropolymer coatings
• 08:51 – The role of fluoropolymer topcoats in water tank coating systems
• 13:05 – Fluoropolymer finish coat performance vs. other common technologies
• 15:08 – Fluoropolymer finish coats are not always the best fit
• 17:17 – Promoting long-term visual appeal
• 19:36 – Application properties
• 21:04 – The cost of novel chemistry
• 24:05 – Lifecycle cost benefits of fluoropolymer products
• 25:52 – Human health, PFAS, and forever chemical concerns
• 32:02 – The regulatory landscape today
• 33:53 – Key takeaways
• 35:14 – The four questions

Transcript

Introduction

Toby Wall: Owners of elevated water storage tanks have lots of topcoat options available to them. Whether their primary concern is aesthetics and branding, or long-lived performance, or budget, they can find what they need. But in terms of visual appeal and corrosion protection performance, one resin technology, fluoroethylene vinyl ether, does stand head and shoulders above the rest. Accordingly, so does its price tag. So today, fluoropolymer topcoats take center stage. What are they? Why do they work so well? Why are they expensive? And just how good is that ROI? That's next on The Red Bucket.

It is very satisfying when a topic of discussion consists of the overlapping expertise of not one, but two voices that you've heard here recently. So I am thrilled to welcome back Jeremy Sukola and Kristen Blankenship. Jeremy is the Vice President of Prime Resins and Carboline's Market Manager for Water and Wastewater.

Longest job title ever. And Kristen is Carboline's Product Line Manager for Atmospheric Coatings. Thank you both for being here today.

Kristen Blankenship: Thank you.

Jeremy Sukola: Thank you, Toby.

Toby: And the subject here is fluoropolymer topcoats. There's quite a bit of an evolution which has taken place. With that in mind, thinking about fluoropolymer topcoats for water tanks, this isn't really new, but it is an evolution from someplace in the past to the present. And I wonder if you can walk us through, briefly, where did we start with fluoropolymers? How have we moved, and how did we get where we are today?

A brief history of fluoropolymers

Jeremy: Absolutely. And I'll go over my very brief understanding of the history of fluoropolymers, but will always cede the conversation over to our expert on the topic, Kristen, when we start talking about molecules and chemistry. So basically we're, we're looking at fluoropolymer technology being around, prior to World War II, with the accidental discovery by DuPont of PTFE, better known as Teflon, polytetrafluoroethylene.

Really, the idea behind this product was its non-stick capabilities. It's chemical resistance, but PTFE in and of itself, not really for coatings, especially 75 years ago. So, fast forward 30 years or so, and now we're talking about an evolution in that technology. PVDF or polyvinylidene fluoride.

Really, what you have here is you've got a, like I said, an evolution in this technology for coatings that were primarily used for coil coating, architectural-type applications. These types of materials require baking in the oven. They're known by some pretty common trade names, Kynar and Hylar. But again, we're talking about mid to late sixties here.

You start moving into the 1990s and 2000s, though, and we've got, you know, another evolution of the fluoropolymer technology and the FEVE resin, the fluoroethylene vinyl ether resin, where we're really looking at field-applied fluoropolymer topcoats. And you know, the one thing that stayed the same throughout all these evolutions of the fluoropolymer topcoat really is its UV stability and its ability to protect against degradation caused by ultraviolet light, in addition to its chemical resistance and some things outside of the coatings industry that it provides in the electrical world. So that's, that's a real brief history of how the coatings industry really started to adopt fluoropolymer technology, really beginning in the 1960s but through field application in the mid to late 1990s and onward.

Toby: Kristen, as I ask this question about what makes a fluoropolymer, a fluoropolymer, or what makes a fluoro coating, a fluoro coating, let's talk about what, what is the experience that you have that is the source of that knowledge on your end?

Composition and properties of fluoropolymer coatings

Kristen: The world of fluoro chemistry is very vast and broad, even though it relies solely on the fact that there's one element included in all of it, and that's why it's fluoropolymer, and that's fluorine.

I did work previously for a company that manufactures fluoroethylene vinyl ether resins. And as Jeremy noted, these types of fluoropolymers really were relegated to a factory or shop environment because, as I mentioned earlier, fluorine doesn't like to play nice in the sandbox with other elements, maybe put it that way. And so it's very hard to get it to do much. It's hard to get it to react with other things. And then when it does react with something, it's hard to break it apart. And, so usually most materials that use fluorine requires some type of high heat.

And so we talked about Teflon, PTFE, those types of materials usually require 700, 800 degrees Fahrenheit to actually form a film. PVDF, polyvinylidene fluoride, as Jeremy noted, was a breakthrough because it only needed 450 degrees Fahrenheit. But you can imagine you're still in a factory environment.

So what happened in the eighties over in Japan actually was the development of a material called fluoroethylene vinyl ether. This was unique in that it actually allowed for film formation at room temperature. It also, the molecule allows for the addition of what we call a functional group. So it's basically something that likes to react with something else.

And in our world of water tanks and coatings for water tanks, we like something called a hydroxyl group. And so that group is put on the backbone of this FEVE resin, and guess what? It can react with the reactant that forms a urethane. So you went from having urethanes, aliphatic urethanes that weather really well, to a fluorinated urethane that weathers frankly better than probably any other type of material that's out there. These materials rely on a carbon-fluorine bond. That bond energy is stronger than what comes from the sun, and so it just simply doesn't break down. The other, there's other components in it because it is a fluorourethane, that do break down over time, but because most, a large portion of is that carbon-fluorine bond, it really has a very, very, very slow rate of degradation.

The breakthrough with this technology was that you could apply it in the field, outside, and it dried. So guess what? That's great for an elevated water tank. The other thing that really helps, which is really great for elevated water tanks, is maintaining bright, shiny finishes with high gloss. That was another breakthrough with this resin chemistry is that it actually gave you high gloss. PVDF really is more of a kind of satin matte finish. So, as Jeremy noted, for coil coating and for facades and the architectural space, high gloss is usually not necessarily the best thing.

We don't wanna blind pilots in the sky and melt asphalt on the ground. So, it just kind of worked out well that these materials were developed, and they really work well on elevated water tanks and have been used in that space for decades now.

Jeremy: And while Kristen has decades of experience with formulating FEVE, I spent the last two hours before this podcast learning how to say fluoroethylene vinyl ether, just to not embarrass myself.

Toby: That one rolled off the tongue really, really well.

Jeremy: I've been practicing hard.

Toby: Well, you brought up, Kristen, the use of this resin technology within coatings that are applied on water tanks whatever is the coating that is applied to a tank isn't the only one. It exists in a coating system.

And so, whichever of you wants to take this can take this, but let's talk about the role of a fluoropolymer finish coat within the context of the system of which it is a part.

The role of fluoropolymer topcoats in water tank coating systems

Jeremy: Yeah. No doubt fluoropolymers excel as topcoats, right? As far as UV protection, color, and gloss retention, there are none better.

However, fluoropolymers only work when we look at something, let's say, like a water tank; they only work because they are part of a full system, right? So coating systems made up of primers, one or more intermediate coats, topcoats. Okay? So we use the primer, obviously, it promotes, it provides adhesion to whatever substrate that you're working on.

In this case, we're obviously talking about steel. So depending on the type of primer that you use, you can have some other forms of, of protection. With zinc primers, you get galvanic protection. With epoxy primers, you get barrier protection. Or if you combine, you know, moisture-cured urethane or epoxy resins with zincs, you get the benefit of both—intermediate layers. Typically, on tanks like this, intermediate layers are usually more of the aliphatic polyurethane type. So, we can add some build to the system. We can add some additional chemical resistance. But it's not to say that an intermediate coat cannot be an epoxy.

Again, another barrier coat to add some, some mills to the system to provide that enhanced barrier protection with a normal aliphatic polyurethane. And then obviously a topcoat. So the fluoropolymer topcoat, providing the UV resistance the excellent color and gloss retention.

You know, in addition to the chemical resistance that this resin in this system provides. So it's really, it's like building a house. Use your primers as your foundation. You're using your intermediate coat or coats as the framing of the house. The fluoropolymer would be like the weather-resistant siding on the roof of the structure, protecting it and giving it that ultimate protection.

Kristen: If I could jump in here for just a second, because this is a really good point that you're, you're making, Jeremy, the, the ability of that topcoat, or as you mentioned, you know, weather-resistant siding, you know, it's the shell of the building, right? It, it really is important to have something that's withstands the effects of UV light, moisture and rain, for a really long time because what'll end up happening is typically it's a process called photochemical degradation. And what'll happen with, you know, non-fluorinated topcoats is you'll start to see some breakdown at the molecular level. You can't, I say, see, you won't see it. That's the whole idea, right? The only thing that you will see is usually a loss in gloss over time.

And, so many times in the industry and the conversations I've had, there's this idea of separating, "Oh, well, I don't care about color and gloss, right? I care about corrosion." And the reality is, they're not separate. If gloss is starting to drop, you're actually starting to see that coating film break down at the molecular level. Again, you can't really see the bonds breaking, but the effect of that is that you're getting microcracks and voids within that coating film.

And what does that do? Well, it allows moisture and salt, and then over time, UV light to get down to that midcoat, which in a lot of cases is an epoxy. So the more UV light that hits that epoxy, that starts breaking down. And then eventually you'll get that moisture into your primer, and you'll start going through the zinc if you're using a zinc-rich primer.

So the shell or the topcoat is really more than just aesthetics. It really is a protective layer that protects all the layers underneath and allows them to do that job. Just like we, you know, you mentioned with the weather-resistant siding on the house.

Toby: If one was to compare performance of a fluoropolymer topcoat in a system versus other weatherable urethanes in a system, my question was going to be, is there a pecking order in terms of performance? It sounds like that's not really a question, though.

Fluoropolymer finish coat performance vs. other common technologies

Jeremy: No, no. At the very, very, very top of that order are fluoropolymers for sure.

Typically, when we're looking at color and gloss retention, UV protection on something like an elevated water storage tank, it really runs the gamut. Basically, you're starting with real, super old-school alkyds. Then you can move into some acrylic-based formulas.

You know, could be water-based, could be urethanes. Then we move into the aliphatic urethanes, which really also runs the gamut of, of color and gloss retention and UV protection. We have some real bargain basement, aliphatic urethanes up to, you know, super advanced, pretty, pretty good-performing aliphatic urethanes. You've also got polysiloxane technologies, which do a really good job of color, gloss retention, chemical resistance, UV protection, and some higher film build. But yeah, absolutely at the top of the order, would be fluoropolymer topcoats. Would you agree with that, Kristen?

Kristen: Yes. The one thing to keep in mind always is formulation, right? And I think in this, the industry that we're in, there's been a lot of effort to be sure that these fluoropolymers are formulated properly. But yes, a properly formulated fluoropolymer paint is going to last longer than really any other system that's organic in nature that I can think of.

Toby: So with these pretty impressive performance characteristics that you've both noted and the discussion of what's happening at the molecular level with such strong carbon-fluorine bonds, on the one hand, it sounds like pretty much any argument for fluoropolymer topcoats is a good argument.

But not every problem is solved by fluoropolymer topcoats. So I wonder when you don't need this, what are the situations, Jeremy, where, if you have the buffet in front of you, the thing you reach for is not the fluoropolymer.

Fluoropolymer finish coats are not always the best fit

Jeremy: I would say first and foremost, upfront cost of the technology is something that has to be weighed on a, on a per project basis. And I say it that way, "upfront cost," because obviously, fluoropolymers last quite a bit longer than competing technologies. So, over the life cycle of the structure and the coating system, it does pay back, but that upfront cost sometimes is outside of the budget of a city or a municipality.

If they're repainting an elevated water tank or painting a new-build tank. We've got areas of the country that perhaps we don't have UV degradation as bad as we do in other parts of the country. I today am recording this in my office in Atlanta, so in the southeast and the Gulf area, we get a little bit more sunshine down here than certain parts of the country do. I'm originally from Seattle. I could see where we would use quite a bit more fluoropolymer here for UV degradation in Atlanta than we would in Seattle. So UV exposure is a consideration. But other technologies exist in that space, too—the standard aliphatic polyurethanes. If we're in an area where perhaps extreme color and gloss retention isn't needed, that aesthetic portion isn't our primary goal. Chemical resistance film build, things like that, a really good polysiloxane will fit in there.

So we always have to match the solution to the environment and to the project. So there, those are just a few instances where a fluoropolymer may not be needed.

Toby: And I'm sure listeners, just as I, have been building a picture in their head of, you know, we're talking a lot about these elevated water storage tanks. A water tower in your hometown, if it's gonna have fluoropolymer topcoat as part of its system, it's not necessarily the case that it'll always be the entire surface area of that structure.

Promoting long-term visual appeal

Jeremy: Yeah. Some, you know, some tanks are monotone colors. It's just one color, top to bottom. Sometimes they use standard urethane, sometimes they'll paint the entire tank with a fluoropolymer, just that single color. A lot of times, cities will use these elevated water storage tanks as logos for their city, right?

There's a lot of civic pride in perhaps the high school or local business that's really big in the community. So, a lot of times, the municipal owners will decide to paint very, very elaborate logos on these elevated water tanks. And it's not to say that standard urethanes could not do the job, but because we look at these logos, you know, for bright, vibrant colors, and we really want 'em to stand out, a lot of times we're using fluoropolymers for these logos.

And these logos can get extremely intricate. There's some fantastic tanks that exist out in the world that have these wonderful logos and themes painted on them. Eric Henn is a painter that paints these wonderful logos on water tanks and primarily uses fluoropolymer technology just because of how bright and vibrant it is.

So, it can be an entire tank, or it can be just the logos themselves. So we're talking again about going from. Maybe eight to 12 years with a standard urethane, to 15 to 20 years on the use of a fluoropolymer topcoat. So, upfront cost a little bit more, but because we're extending that service life, we have less maintenance.

It really does pay for itself in the long run.

Toby: Kristen, can you talk about application properties of fluoropolymers, because when Jeremy brings up logos, lettering, in some cases, very intricate designs, we start to walk away from this image of somebody on a scaffold or hanging from a rope with a spray gun and just doing the entire area very quickly.

It, you know, there's some craftsmanship involved here, and I guess, what should we be saying about application properties for fluoropolymer topcoats?

Application properties

Kristen: This question came up quite a lot in my previous life working with these materials and trying to educate the market and our customers about how they were used.

And of course, the biggest misconception was that because they were specialty, because they did special things and because they were this really long chemical name that nobody could pronounce, except Jeremy but that they must have some special way of being applied.

They must look different in the bucket. They must feel different when you apply it. And the reality is, they're very similar to a standard two-component urethane system. And with that being said, of course, you can formulate urethanes to be spray applied, airless spray, conventional spray. You can also formulate them to be roller-applied and brush-applied. So the resins themselves can be formulated with different additives and different thinners that allow for really nice brush and roll application. So that's where you really have to work with your supplier and the manufacturer and understand the limits of the paint itself.

So it all comes down to the formulating.

Toby: We talked about a cost component to all of this and the calculations that an owner or that specifier is gonna do, you know, the upfront cost versus the, you know, how long does it take that cost to pay off? But Kristen, the sticker shock does come from somewhere.

Where does it come from?

The cost of novel chemistry

Kristen: It really is the unique material. It's novel chemistry. That's why there really is only one supplier globally with a true fluoroethylene vinyl ether system or resin system. And those unique raw materials, you know, they oftentimes come with the price. And you know, we just haven't really seen anybody come in and crack the code on how to make it.

There have been some attempts in the market, but nobody's really been successful. You can imagine if you have a raw material that is going to withstand degradation for decades, you have to be sure that you manufacture it consistently with quality in mind and use raw materials that are going to give you that end product every single time to deliver. So, there is a price tag that comes with that.

Toby: It feels to me like especially with there, with there being so few, suppliers in the world that can supply the world capably, it's sort of the opposite of a situation where you've cornered the market on like toasters and then it doesn't matter if the toaster's good or not, it's just you, you sell all of them to, you know, there's no competition.

But in this case, I think the stakes are a little bit higher. So it would seem to me that the, that emphasis on quality, you know, they can't, they can't have their guard down. The, if the resin, you know, they invented something really great. It has to stay great. It has to be great the entire time. Because it's not like there is an easily accessible substitute.

Kristen: Absolutely.

Jeremy: And Toby, it really comes down to, like Kristen stated, the performance because what the performance ultimately equals is a lower total lifecycle cost, right? If we're paying to paint, for instance, an elevated water storage tank today with a product that costs X amount of money, and we know that we're gonna get 20 years out of that before we need to do some maintenance painting on it, versus perhaps a standard urethane system that still provides very good protection for eight to 12 years before it needs some maintenance or even a total redo.

The cost of the labor and the scaffolding, the mobilization, the coatings, eight to 10 years from now, it more than makes up for that upfront cost for this technology. We have to look at these coating systems as assets that, you know, provide that protection, and the upfront cost of this technology more than pays for itself in the long run.

Toby: What else does the owner need to think about? Right? There's the, you know, every owner is different and their level of knowledge is gonna be different, but if you were to compare what the average owner knows today about this technology against what you wish they knew. What would that comparison be?

Lifecycle cost benefits of fluoropolymer products

Jeremy: Well, I think the owners have a pretty good understanding of what the value of the technology is, right? And that's really what we always strive to do. That goes outside of fluoropolymers, right? If we're, if we're trying to help an owner choose a secondary containment or a primary lining system, we always wanna make sure that they have an understanding of what that upfront cost will eventually get them.

And it's all, again, it's always about total lifecycle costs for the structure. When we talk about, especially municipalities that have to stretch every single dollar they get. This is what we want owners and specifiers to know about this technology. I'm pretty confident that there's a pretty good understanding that with the application of this topcoat to the rest of your system versus, you know, I'll, you can't see my air quotes, but a "standard" topcoat, aliphatic urethane, here is what you can expect out of that system, right? Superior color and gloss. Very, very good UV protection for the tank. Again, the coating system itself is an asset, and I think that the fluoropolymer topcoat helps protect that entire asset.

So that's the main thing that we want the owners to understand, is, you know, that little additional upfront cost really does lower the total lifecycle cost of this system and that structure.

Toby: How about human and environmental health impacts? Kristen, is there, is there cause for concern over the use of fluoropolymer materials for water tank topcoats?

Human health, PFAS, and forever chemical concerns

Kristen: So it's an interesting question, because as a human on the planet Earth and someone who consumes media, I know that I have read about something called forever chemicals.

I've read a phrase called PFAS, and generally, what that refers to is something that, by definition, may include the very specific FEVE resin chemistry. But again, that's only by definition. I actually have written, well, there was a chapter in a book that was referenced in some papers at some industry shows that have been cited in some of the industry's response to this idea that fluoropolymer paints should be included in a class called PFAS.

If you wanna get into the weeds, and I can do that all day long, but I'll just let you know that it's really important to have conversations about these topics with knowledgeable people in this space. As we talked about previously, FEVE resins are a very niche resin chemistry that does something phenomenal, and that's why a company still makes them, because there's still demand, because they make these elevated water tanks beautiful for decades, right? So there's a reason that they're around. But as I said, these are very specialized materials and so with the specialized material, there's usually a handful of people that may know the most intricate details of the chemistry, and those people aren't always seated at the table when these discussions about forever chemicals are going on.

So what's been going on in the industry simply is that originally the idea of PFAS was really something where you had a fluorinated material that also was able to be soluble in water. Basically, it was a fluorinated soap to make it easy. And so you can imagine if those fluorinated soaps get in water, they get in groundwater. Eventually, they get in your body, and now you have carbon-fluorine bonds going around in your body.

And guess what? As we talked about earlier, fluorine is the most electronegative chemical on the periodic table, which basically means it doesn't like to play with other people, and it likes to be left alone. And so there's been a concern theoretically that these materials will accumulate in your body because you can't break them down.

And then the question is, well, then what? Well, that's the problem. We don't know the "then what?" So there's a lot of studies going on to understand the impacts to human health, and some studies have suggested that these materials do have a negative effect. And so it is very important to err on the side of caution, but it's also really important to think about throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

So the reality is that the FEVE resins that are used in these high-performing elevated water tanks, if it is FEVE resin, they are not formulated with actively PFAS material. So there is a concern that, "Well, could they break down into those materials?" Well, we don't know. And guess what? They don't really break down that much.

Right. That's the whole reason we use them. So I do know of one study that's been going on at the University of Toronto. I actually haven't seen any papers written. I actually spoke with the professor who was doing this study, and their idea was they were gonna actually look at facades that were coated, I think Jeremy alluded to it earlier, coil-coated and or extrusion, so those are spray-coated, but those used either PVDF or FEVE. So they were gonna look at the effect of, you know, rain cycles over time on those coatings and see if, if any breakdown material could accumulate in the water, and if that breakdown material actually was, you know, a PFAS-type material. Well, I don't think those results are out, but that doesn't mean that these materials haven't been classified as PFAS, haven't been classified as these, you know, the 9,000 chemicals that are forever chemicals.

The reality is we haven't studied 9,000 chemicals to see if each one of those unique materials actually harms our health. So again, on the one hand, you wanna be very cautious when it comes to human health, right? I think we've, we've learned over the past decade or so, that being cavalier with additives in our food, for example, can be a real problem, right?

We maybe need to be scrutinize them a little bit more before we just throw in, you know, Red 40 into our kids' candy, right? But at the same time, while yes, your kid might be upset that the, I don't know, the Red Hots aren't very bright red, right? Or the Froot Loops. What we're talking about here is that elevated water tank having to re be repainted multiple times over the course of 60 years if you don't use the fluoropolymer, well, what's the impact to the environment and frankly to human health of using those materials, manufacturing those materials, getting the feedstocks to manufacture 'em, the energy cost, the carbon footprint of, of making those materials and then applying them. And then, of course, the impact to the workers that are spraying those materials. So in this instance, it's really important that we do the science, we do the studies and we get it right.

So, I would say that at this point, the jury is still out on whether FEVE itself, which again is a fluoropolymer, is inert and not soluble in water. You may see some water-based materials with FEVE or with PVDF. That doesn't mean that those materials are soluble in water; it just means they're suspended in water.

So I'll catch that little note there if there's an eyebrow raised. But needless to say, this is an area of great concern, and the research is ongoing, but we actually, as far as I know to date, haven't actually cracked the code and know the answer to whether or not FEVE resins contribute to the forever chemicals in our environment.

Toby: Jeremy, from a market regulatory perspective, how has the regulatory landscape kept pace, outpaced, or lagged behind the pace of the science that Kristen just walked us through?

The regulatory landscape today

Jeremy: Well, I think it's keeping pace, in that it's glacial. We are seeing regulations around the world that are changing.

We here in the United States perhaps we don't have quite the knee-jerk reaction to these technologies that we see in some parts of Europe. And I think that's okay. We do have customers this is a concern for them. We do have customers that ask questions and bring this up, and we're as upfront and as honest as we can possibly be in that, to Kristen's point, what she just said, that the science is, is ongoing and the science will continue to be ongoing for years and years and decades. So, from a regulatory standpoint, if there's concern on an owner's part about what the future might look like. There are options outside of fluoropolymers if that fits their needs, or like I said, if those concerns are persistent.

You know, we're gonna continue at Carboline to follow the science as it comes out. We are stewards of the environment, both Kristen and I, and you, Toby, and our parents. So, you know, we think about all of these things. We keep them in mind, but again, we don't wanna have a knee-jerk reaction to something that the sciences does, just does not prove out.

So from a regulatory standpoint, I think here in the United States, at least, a slow and steady pace. So I don't believe we'll see a knee-jerk reaction here on the coatings. That's not to say other parts of other industries that have fluoropolymer technologies, we won't see stricter regulations.

But as far as the coatings world goes, for now, I think we're in good shape.

Toby: This seems like a pretty good place where we could put a stop to it. How would you wrap a bow around this, Jeremy?

Key takeaways

Jeremy: I would say probably two or three things to take away from this. First, I think fluoropolymers are about looking ahead, right? We're investing now to reduce our cost in maintenance years down the road. I think for municipalities who are really focusing in on protecting our real super critical infrastructure, fluoropolymers do provide, that peace of mind that their investment will last, right?

We're paying a little bit more upfront for that longer overall life cycle. And really, this just, it really isn't about paint, right? It is really about preserving these essential public assets. I live in a city, in a town that's got water tanks all over the place, as I'm sure both of you do as well.

So it is about preserving essential public assets because we are stewards of these assets, and we have to give them to our kids when we're done. So it really is about preservation.

Toby: Well, with that in mind, we can move on to the four questions. Jeremy, having admitted he was scared to death of what I was about to confront you all with, so I've got four questions, and you each can answer each question.

Are you ready?

The four questions

Kristen: Ready.

Jeremy: Ready.

Toby: It wouldn't be the four questions without a food question, so that's where I'm gonna start. Some people include sugar in their recipe for spaghetti sauce. And my question is, is that sensible to you, or does that make them a monster?

Jeremy: Absolute anarchy. Absolute anarchy. Sugar in spaghetti sauce. I've never heard of such nonsense. Do you put spaghetti? Do you put sugar in your sauce, Kristen?

Kristen: I would never put direct, just plain old sugar. But you can get sugar other ways, like caramelizing those onions.

Toby: I've heard too, people will grind up their, or, shred their carrots like in a cheese grater and do it that way. In a spaghetti sauce.

Jeremy: In spaghetti sauce. We might have to end this podcast right here, Toby.

Toby: Well, I'm not saying that I endorse sugar of any kind in spaghetti sauce. I think that's either--

Jeremy: Agreed.

Toby: This one might be a little less controversial. Do you have a favorite body of water?

Jeremy: I actually do. So I grew up in the Seattle area, so the Puget Sound, for me, that's a little inlet between the main part of Washington State and the, and the big peninsulas that sticks up there, the Puget Sound. I grew up in, on that freezing cold body of water. And so I would say that, yeah, that's probably, that's probably my, my go-to for a body of water.

Kristen: I'm gonna talk about the Atlantic Ocean. I got to experience the Atlantic from Brazil, which is a very different experience than the U.S. East Coast.

And it was breathtaking to be up on these almost cliffs in South America and see the Atlantic that way.

But when you're up high up on a cliff down in South America and going up these little roads in the mountains, it's a whole other experience. So we'll go with the Atlantic.

Toby: Question number three. So this is the season for road trips. Summer is here. Do you have one from the past that sticks out in your memory, or do you have one, a dream road trip, that you want to tick off the list?

Jeremy: I have a road trip that sticks out. About 15 years ago, I had to actually drive a car from my house outside of Atlanta back to where I used to live, just outside of Seattle.

And I drove straight through without stop from Atlanta to Seattle. This was before GPS cell phones and all of that. So I had a big Rand McNally road atlas, lots of coffee, and 52 hours of straight driving.

Kristen: And how old were you again, Jeremy?

Jeremy: Fifteen years ago, so I would've been 12 years old.

Kristen: Wow. That's impressive. I don't.

Jeremy: A young, I was a younger man for sure.

Kristen: I don't think I have one that rivals that, but I do. I cannot wait for the day I can take my four little kiddos on a road trip across the country and see all the great things this country has to offer. It terrifies me to think of it now because my youngest is three.

But I hope within the next, you know, five or six years that we'll be able to pile in and really enjoy ourselves learning about this magnificent country that we live in.

Toby: Question number four. So it's tornado season. Kristen, Jeremy, when the siren starts blaring, are you heading for the basement or are you going right out to the, to the front yard to watch?

Kristen: I'm yelling at my husband to get the kids to the basement, and then I'm looking out the window or vice versa, right?

Jeremy: Unfortunately, we do not have a basement. We are on a slab, but we have a very, Harry Potter-esque, under-stairs storage area where we do have a mattress that my 4-year-old son was sleeping on when our sirens went off at midnight last week.

So, we're typically huddled somewhere in or near that under-stairs closet.

Toby: In the Dursley residence.

Jeremy: That's right. That's right. Well, see, unfortunately for us, I can't remember the last time a tornado went through during the day, so we can't see anything anyway.

Toby: So that'll do it. Jeremy Sukola, Kristin Blankenship, thank you very much for such entertaining answers to the four questions and for your knowledge on fluoropolymer topcoats.

Jeremy: Thank you, Toby.

Kristen: Yes, as always, Toby. Thank you.