Due to changing laws and regulations, the cannabis industry has seen massive growth in the last several years. This growth has led to major capital investments and new construction as producers look to build new facilities in which to produce cannabis. During this next episode, we talk about all the factors that are needed to make a good resinous flooring recommendation for one of these facilities. All this and more coming up next on The Red Bucket.
Click to follow along with the transcript:
- 0:00 - Intro
- 1:38 - Introduction to Michael Greenblatt and Surface Technology
- 2:48 - The Cannabis Industry and Its Similarities to the Pharmaceutical and Food and Beverage Industries
- 5:43 - The Construction Process Knowledge Gaps in the Cannabis Industry
- 8:06 - Regulatory Challenges in the Cannabis Industry
- 10:55 - Why You Shouldn't Just Buy a Flooring System off the Shelf
- 12:26 - Security Regulations on Projects in the Cannabis Industry
- 14:54 - The Requirements for Cleanroom Floors and Walls
- 15:57 - The Benefits of Resinous Floor and Wall Systems
- 18:06 - Floor and Wall System Recommendations for Cannabis Facilities
- 20:23 - The Benefits of Urethane Cement
- 22:07 - Urethane Cement vs. Epoxy Mortars
- 23:17 - The Importance of Using a Qualified Flooring Installer
- 24:24 - Chemical Resistance Requirements in a Cannabis Facility
- 27:14 - The Importance of Reflective and Light-Colored Flooring in a Cannabis Growing Facility
- 30:18 - Why You Shouldn't Leave Concrete Bare
- 33:18 - The Future of the Cannabis Industry
- 36:07 - "The Four Questions" [Non-Technical]
- 39:20 - Closing Remarks
- 40:35 - "Tech Tips"
Jack Walker: Welcome to the second edition of The Red Bucket podcast. I'm Jack Walker. With me, as always, is Paul Atzemis. Paul, how's it going?
Paul Atzemis: Jack, it's going great. I'm happy that we've got the podcast going. We've got some great guests lined up, and today's guest is going to be a fantastic one.
Jack: Yeah, it's a topic that I honestly thought we'd never talk about here in an industrial painting podcast. But it is relevant. It's about a booming industry. It's constantly changing. And, if you haven't figured it out yet, we're talking a little bit about cannabis growing and the facilities that are booming up all over the place as it becomes more legal. Don't just listen to me and Paul, though. As we've told you with The Red Bucket podcast, what we want to do is bring on people in the industry who are experts: who have experience in these areas.
Introduction to Michael Greenblatt and Surface Technology
Jack: So, we're lucky enough today to have Michael Greenblatt of Surface Technology, Inc. with us. Hey, Michael, how's it going?
Michael Greenblatt: How you guys doing? Thanks for having me.
Paul: Oh, it's our pleasure.
Jack: Absolutely. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Surface Technology, Inc., just so everybody's familiar?
Michael: Well, Surface Technology is a company involved in the installation of high-performance floor, wall, and occasionally ceiling systems as well. The majority of our work is in industrial flooring. We started in 1988. I, personally, have been involved in the industry, now this is my 40th year. So, we work throughout the continental United States, occasionally in Canada as well. We focus traditionally on food and beverage, pharmaceutical, and other heavy manufacturing facilities. Recently, within the last few years, we have developed a new division specifically to go after the cannabis and hemp markets.
The Cannabis Industry and Its Similarities to the Pharmaceutical and Food and Beverage Industries
Jack: Well, and it kind of hits on both of those, right? A little bit of food and beverage, a little bit pharmaceutical?
Michael: The synergies of both food and beverage and pharmaceutical are really perfect for cannabis because it does involve both aspects. Cannabis with edibles and some of the processing that they go through for that, as well as some of the conditions that they need in both pharmaceutical and food and beverage.
Paul: That's right. And you know, one of the things that most people don't think about when they think about this market is most of the regulations that I know of require it to be grown indoors. So, you're in a totally synthetic environment that has to be maintained. It's not like corn or soybean that you grow out in the wild. It's used to having all of the normal environmental contaminants.
Jack: Sure. And Michael, we alluded to the growth in the industry, but really you kind of said it best. You guys now have a special division specifically chasing after these floors. What have you guys seen as far as growth in this industry?
Michael: Well, to be honest, we got involved in it kind of accidentally. I'm going to say maybe five or six years ago now. Initially, just really knew nothing about it. And to be honest, we're still learning about it to the extent that we want to be knowledgeable about our customer and their processes to help them customize the best solutions. But, like I said, when we first started learning a little bit about it, I did find out that there's a lot of aspects of their business that lend themselves to what we do. They need hygienic surfaces. They need durable surfaces. They need to resist mold, bacteria, other pathogens. A lot of the things that we're used to in helping our existing food and beverage and pharmaceutical customers.
Jack: Sure. And I think, you know, we've been saying cannabis. A lot of people, though, will just say weed. And, and the reason I'm bringing that up is, is when you think of a weed, I think of like the stuff that grows in my yard that doesn't really need much help: Dandelions and things like that, ragweed. Things that like don't require a lot of maintenance to grow feverishly. But however, in the case of cannabis, these guys are really paying attention to a lot of things when they're growing their plant, and that's why these bacterias and things like that are important, right Michael?
The Construction Process Knowledge Gaps in the Cannabis Industry
Michael: Yeah. They are. The one thing that we learned early on is that as it became a semi-regulated industry, and it kind of came out of people's basements or garages or backyards or whatever, they knew that they wanted to be able to produce at scale. And they knew what worked for them on a small scale, but they weren't familiar really with construction processes at all. And they knew that they wanted reflective surfaces. They knew they wanted cleanable surfaces, but a lot of that just revolved around, well, they would just run out to Home Depot and get some paint at the last minute. And so, there's been a significant learning curve versus some of the more mature industries: in food and beverage, pharmaceutical, and in other manufacturing operations. The use of high-performance coatings is nothing new, especially for bigger companies. But even for the relatively larger producers of cannabis that we've been involved in, their understanding of processes and procedures for construction in general and, more specifically, for high-performance coatings has been, in some cases, next to none. So, we've been involved in facilities where there's millions of dollars being spent, and then, they're like, "Oh, well, do we need this? Do we need that?" So, it's been both trying as well as rewarding to be able to help educate in the industry.
Jack: I remember the first phone call. Before I was in Marketing, I was in our Tech Service department. And the first phone call I got right about the time Canada legalized, and they were starting to build the facilities. And the guy calling really wasn't sure what they needed. He knew that he needed to coat his concrete on this brand-new football field size facility, but he really wasn't sure which way to go.
Regulatory Challenges in the Cannabis Industry
Jack: And I think one of the things that you talked about there a second ago was, as far as construction goes with building these facilities, what's the right way to go? And to a certain extent, that varies based on the location of the facility, doesn't it?
Michael: Yeah. We've done projects in, I would say, most of the cannabis-legal states in the country right now. But because it's still regulated by individual state laws. Every state is different. So, there's very little uniformity. I know here in Pennsylvania, for instance, one of the things that's been pretty challenging is that I believe that they had a regulation that from the time you got your license, that you had to be operational within six months. Now, that may have changed since it first came out, but what happens because of that is that it tends to compromise the ability to do quality finishes because they're in a tremendous rush. And even when money is not an object, which is rare for any project, time is always an issue. Now, that is not the case in every state. So, in some cases, they have as much time as they would need. But the hodgepodge of different laws and regulations is difficult not only for the operators but for contractors like myself, especially if you're going from state to state. Ultimately, and I have no crystal ball on this, but ultimately the hope is that there will be some federal oversight and regulation and some uniformity of some of the laws. But that's not the landscape as it is right now.
Jack: It's almost like Pennsylvania is doing the stoner screening. Like you can own one of these, but if it takes you longer than six months to put it together, we know you're using your own product, and we don't want that to happen.
Michael: And this is just speculation on my part, but I think part of the reasoning behind that is that I think that they didn't want people sitting on licenses. That they wanted to make sure that this wasn't just a reason to try to speculate and gain a license, maybe resell it. They wanted people to actually get the facilities in operation.
Why You Shouldn’t Just Buy a Flooring System Off the Shelf
Paul: And this really does create a niche opportunity for companies like yours and suppliers like us. Because, like we've said, we've taken pharmaceutical-style businesses and food and beverage who understand clean rooms, they understand clean environments, bacteria growth, and that. But they don't typically deliberately bring dirt into their facility. And then we have on the other end of it, we have farmers who are used to growing things, know how to work with dirt, know how to have these environments, but aren't used to having to have the floor immaculately clean at all times. Combine that in with the speed at which you have to install a system. And I've heard of some other states that have relatively short timeframes that they want things done in. And then you want to put in something that's going to require little to no maintenance over the time. It really creates a category where products, like we said before, you can't go to your local big box store and just go buy something off the shelf because, yes, you can apply that, but you've got to look at time to service, how quickly can it be in? And then what's going to happen when you have to do maintenance? What's going to happen when you have a forklift that drives across it? If it chips up? So, that really creates a niche environment for a company like yours who can do the full-service installation of a quality floor that's not going to give a problem. And manufacturers like us who are able to manufacture products that can be put in at the speed that is required and give you the turnaround that you need to be able to get that installed and out of the way so that they can get growing.
Security Regulations on projects in the Cannabis Industry
Michael: One of the other factors involved in cannabis that is not present in a lot of the projects that we do in other industries is the security issues. So, it's even more important for an operator to address their floors as well as their walls on an initial basis. Again, because they're regulated, high security. People sometimes need background checks and so forth to get into these facilities. It's almost the equivalent of some sort of a government installation or some other sort of a secure facility. So, what happens is that if you don't get the work done in the construction or renovation process, again, almost aside from whether there's money available, the disruption to the operation, and the logistics in terms of getting in, it gets close to impossible. So, those are just some little things that we've learned along the way that are a little different than your average customer.
Paul: So, in that kind of a thinking of the regulations and the background checks and the things that go in, I'm sure that's probably part of the requirement that you had or the desire that you had to create a separate division, branch, specialty group, so, that way you could, maybe it's people who need different screening or different permissions or that you could get through different screenings as they come up. It's no different than getting into a nuclear facility and having to do work at a nuclear grounds where you have that kind of regulation.
Michael: It can be like that. Yes. And we do other work in secure facilities, but, again, it wasn't something that we had actually thought that much about when we first got involved in this. So, it is just another little twist to dealing in this particular type of industry. Now, there are other pharmaceutical facilities that have similar types of operations and even food and beverage facilities. But it's almost uniform throughout the cannabis industry. You have to oftentimes be checked going in, checked going out. It involves a lot more procedure than your typical work.
Paul: Yeah. Not as big a deal when you steal a can of Pepsi on your way out of the plant.
The Requirements for Cleanroom Floors and Walls
Jack: So, we've mentioned it a lot. And I think it'd be good to kind of set the stage. We've talked about a clean room floor. We've referenced that several times throughout this episode. And some of our listeners might not know exactly what we're talking about. Michael, can you kind of describe some of the requirements of a clean room floor?
Michael: Yeah. Well, a clean room environment involves a hygienic surface, something that can easily be cleaned, something that will not harbor dirt, bacteria, mold, mildew. And typically, most clean room environments will involve what they call complete envelope protection involving floors, walls, ceilings, as well as the addition of integral radius cove base—all of which we do.
Paul: So, it's really a whole envelope that you try to create to be able to just maintain the environment and to do environmental controls.
Michael: That's right. Right.
The Benefits of Resinous Floor and Wall Systems
Michael: And, of course, with the types of products that we use, resinous floor systems, as well as resinous wall systems, create the perfect clean room environment because they're seamless. They're impact abrasion, chemical resistant. Many of them also can even include antibacterial additives. So, additional protection against pathogens and things of this nature. So, it's quite beneficial for obviously people in the cannabis industry and have traditionally been used in food and beverage and pharmaceutical.
Paul: And one of the nice things that when we talk about these resinous floorings, is a lot of cases, they're put down at substantial thickness. And it's not uncommon to see one that's a quarter of an inch or maybe even up to like a half-inch thick that you would install it. So, it really allows you to smooth out a floor to have areas where you don't end up with standing water that can breed bacteria, that you can have things grow in those spaces. You can have dirt accumulate. So, it gives you a nice, smooth working environment. And at the same time, you can add texture additives to make them non-slip environments. So, they really are the best of both worlds when you're trying to put this together.
Michael: One other point that I would want to make is, in the cannabis industry again, one of the other things that we've found is that many of the facilities are retrofitted, renovated existing buildings. Some of them, especially in the Northeast, are old mill buildings and often require significant work to bring the floors, walls up to standard. So, your point about the fact that seamless floors are a perfect alternative is absolutely true because they can be customized on-site to any potential environment.
Floor and Wall System Recommendations for Cannabis Facilities
Jack: So, let's start to talk about that. We've led up to it. We've given characteristics of what a good flooring or even wall system is for a cannabis-growing facility. But let, let's talk about this. What types of systems are you typically installing into these facilities?
Michael: Well, one of the biggest systems that we're installing nowadays is a lot of urethane cement. Urethane cement, for those that don't know, is an epoxy-style floor but utilizes a urethane resin. And it's become quite accepted in many industries because it has some unique qualities that epoxy does not have. One of the biggest advantages of urethane cement is that it will resist what's called hydrostatic vapor pressure. Hydrostatic vapor pressure is what can be created by moisture coming up through the ground, through the concrete, and ultimately can cause delamination of coatings. A lot of older buildings, and this happens routinely in the cannabis industry because I just mentioned that most of the buildings that we're working on are not new out-of-the-ground buildings. Most new out-of-the-ground buildings typically have a six-mil poly vapor barrier, which is basically a sheet of plastic that is put down before the concrete is poured and that acts as your vapor barrier, so you don't potentially get hydrostatic vapor pressure. But because we're working on mostly older buildings, many of them either don't have a vapor barrier. If they do, it was breached at some point because of other penetrations and so forth. So, moisture, hydrostatic vapor, is one of the leading causes of coating failure. And so, we've been doing a lot of urethane cement for that purpose. But beyond that, and that's, of course, a huge benefit of urethane cement.
The Benefits of Urethane Cement
Michael: Urethane cement also has tremendous bond strength. It can go down at lower temperatures. Sometimes you're working in unheated or limited-heat conditions on new construction. It can be textured anywhere from smooth to non-skid. It's relatively easy to install. It's flowable, much more so than some of the epoxy mortars. And it also has tremendous impact abrasion and chemical resistance. And one of the biggest aspects of it is, especially for food producers, food manufacturing companies, as well as some of the food-related edible aspects of cannabis, is that it has what's known as tremendous thermal shock capability. Thermal shock is what happens when you have a floor that may be cool, even at ambient temperature, and it all of a sudden comes in contact with, say, hot liquid such as grease oil from a fryer or something. That can create what's called thermal shock. That also is a tremendous detriment to resinous floor systems. With epoxies, typically, you'll get immediate delamination. Urethane cement is designed to resist that up to a certain level. So, all those factors, plus some others that I'm probably not thinking about right now, are one of the reasons that I wouldn't say we've absolutely standardized, but I would say the vast majority of our cannabis installations are urethane cement.
Urethane Cement vs. Epoxy Mortars
Jack: Yeah. I had an old flooring guy one time tell me, "If you want to have problems, use epoxy. If you want it to go smoothly, use urethane cement." And that's totally an installer's point of view, right?
Michael: I mean, the fact of the matter is that there are still a good number of reasons to use epoxy and epoxy mortars. But as the relative cost of urethane cement has come down, it's harder and harder to look away from that in the vast majority of cases. Epoxy mortars, for instance, are a little bit more difficult to install. We're old school, and we cut our teeth on doing epoxy mortars. They don't take the shape of their container quite as much as a flowable urethane cement. So, there are some advantages to that. But from a performance standpoint, it's really hard to beat the urethane cements now. I think, both from a value and a performance standpoint.
The Importance of using a Qualified Flooring Installer
Jack: And Michael, I'm not just going to say this because you're on the show right now, but it's something that we've said for a really long time. When you go to do one of these flooring installs, it is absolutely important that they reach out to an installer like Surface Technology because not anybody can put down those epoxy mortars. If you let somebody who's not familiar with an epoxy mortar put down an epoxy mortar, you're probably going to have to still call Michael afterwards to have him come fix it.
Michael: Well, I appreciate the plug. Unfortunately, in the last 15 years, there's a lot of guys out there thinking that they could do it, but they have to find out the hard way. You know what I mean?
Paul: You have YouTube. If you can see it on YouTube, that means I can do it, right?
Michael: That's right. Well, I mean, it's almost like, maybe you could learn to be a brain surgeon on YouTube, too.
Paul: No, I know there hasn't been a project in the last five years at my parents' house that hasn't started with my mom saying, "Well, I watched YouTube, so, I think I'm ready to do this." And my dad just shakes his head.
Chemical Resistance Requirements in a Cannabis Facility
Jack: So, we've talked a lot about the aspects. I think, you know, with chemical resistance, it's important. What chemicals does the floor need to be resistant to in a cannabis-growing facility?
Michael: Well, in their process, they do use solvents for extraction and things of this nature, which I was kind of surprised about. We recently did a project in Denver, and I think they had put down some sort of a thin film, maybe it was an epoxy paint, when they first moved in. But where they had their extraction process, we came in, the floor was all down into the stones, from both the processing line and also from some of the chemicals that they stored that leaked and so forth on the floor. And that again, in just from cleaning chemicals, assuming that they are doing proper cleaning, some of the cleaning chemicals can be corrosive to bare concrete. So, there are a variety of different process, as well as operational materials that can be corrosive to the floor.
Paul: And you brought up a great point of, most of the time when people think about cannabis facilities, they don't think about the process of after it was a live growing plant until it gets to whatever facility you're buying it from. And you can end up with things that still look like plants. You know, you have all of the different plant-looking ones. But there's a huge array that look like traditional pharmaceutical products. You have gums and pills and powders. And…
Jack: How do you know about these things, Paul?
Paul: I watch the news.
Jack: "I've heard that it comes in various processed forms."
Paul: And in each of those forms, there is a process that is not unlike other pharmaceutical products. It's a chemical-heavy environment that still has to maintain those clean room qualities and those antiseptic conditions.
Michael: And then, of course, if you flip to, say, the edible side of cannabis, and the food and beverage aspect of it, then, of course, you have fats, and you have sugars. All of which are tremendously bad for concrete. And sugar, of course, is very corrosive. And of course, fats, once they get into the concrete, are very difficult to remove. Those are all the same types of issues that we deal with with your traditional Fortune 500 food companies.
The Importance of Reflective and Light-Colored Flooring in a Cannabis Growing Facility
Jack: So, a couple things now, kind of pivoting back to the plant. You said two things some time ago, but the idea that the coating needs to be reflective and a light color, does that have to do with trying to get the most out of the UV light that they're bringing into the facility?
Michael: Well, the reflectivity of the coating helps to basically magnify the light. That's actually one of the things that we have started to do at some of the shows that we have attended is, we've started talking to some of the lighting people. Matter of fact, one of the shows that I was just recently at in Boston, I'd like to basically buy his display. He had a setup with an epoxy floor. I think it was actually seamless vinyl, but it was supposed to look like an epoxy floor with his lights. But he recognized, as well as growers recognized, the benefit of the reflectivity of the lights. So, he was, of course, selling the lights and trying to show his lights in the best light, so to speak, and I immediately noticed it. And so, we've tried to generate some synergies with some of the light people. But light is a very important aspect of growing cannabis. That's one of the things that I've learned. And, of course, I think that goes for many plants, but maybe especially for cannabis to accelerate the growth process and things of that nature. Again, I'm not a botanist. I don't know all the details about it. But I do know light is important. So, the reflectivity aspect of a light color epoxy is important. And so, typically, most of the installations that we've done have been in the lighter colors.
Paul: Well, and that's probably one of the bigger expenses that they have to do since it is grown indoors, is they have to supply light. It is a photosynthesis process that they have to bring in those light sources for that plant to grow.
Michael: Right. And one of the things that we talk about, and I've talked about for years, well before I got involved in cannabis, for other manufacturing facilities, was the fact that when we would go into a renovation process, the customer may be considering replacing lights. Oftentimes, once the floor was done with the lighter color, unless it was for energy purposes only, they may not necessarily need to replace their lights. Now, in the cannabis industry, I don't know if they have looked at the fact that highly reflective flooring may reduce their cost for lighting or the number of lights that they need, but it's possible.
Why You Shouldn’t Leave Concrete Bare
Jack: I think one of the things that we'd like to talk about, and we've kind of hinted around it, is, and this is true for food and beverage, it's true for pharmaceutical, and it's true for cannabis growing, why don't they want to leave their concrete bare? Why is a coating important?
Michael: Yeah. Well, again, in general terms, coating over your concrete, even if you weren't in the cannabis industry, is it protects your investment. Okay? The ability to protect your substrate is important because, regardless of what business you're in, the concrete floor is the foundation of your business. And if you have problems with your foundation, that potentially could cause disruption to your operation, which essentially could ultimately end up costing you money. Now, as you move up the food chain, no pun intended, you have other issues which we've talked about. You may have contaminants that could potentially get into the concrete, grease, oil, potentially sugars, chemicals, things of that nature that the concrete needs to be protected from. You also have the aspect of texture, okay? You need a floor that's cleanable but also may provide some safety characteristics as far as non-skid. One of the unique aspects of seamless flooring is that it's infinitely variable. And not only is it infinitely variable, but it's also variable even within the same facility, within the same installation. So, they may have some areas of the facility that they may want to have smooth. They may have some areas that they may want to have texture. If you have, as most facilities do, if you have rolling equipment, forklifts, pallet jacks, and so forth, you need to have something that's impact and abrasion-resistant. As well as we've touched on the fact that some of the facilities are exposed to chemicals, and they also may be exposed to the potential for thermal shock, such as hot oils or hot liquids of some sort. A lot of the edibles facilities manufacture some sort of a chocolate. Whenever you have fluid chocolate, it's usually at temperature, contains both cocoa butter as well as high temperature. If that comes in contact with a typical thin film epoxy coating or even a trowel-applied type epoxy coating, it could have delamination. That's one of the reasons that we talked about the urethane cement. So, those are just a few of the reasons.
The Future of the Cannabis Industry
Jack: Is there anything else that you think we need to talk about that we haven't talked about?
Michael: Well, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the market for cannabis is expected to grow exponentially. And although, like I said, I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not tied into the lobbyists, if I had to guess, I would say probably within the next five years, there'll be some sort of federal regulation of cannabis, and it'll be something similar, I guess, to maybe what's already in Canada. At that point, and this is just speculation on my part. You know, right now, you have basically boutique operators as well as some larger to mid-range style operators. I think there'll always be room for those people. So, that will just continue to grow. But I think what will happen when it becomes federally regulated, the bigger players will get involved. The large food, the large pharma, the large tobacco, the large beverage will get involved and probably buy up a lot of the smaller players. But I think, based upon what little I know about the industry at this point, I think there'll always be opportunity for the smaller guys. But the net result is that it's going to be big business. I mean, it already is big business, and it's growing all the time. From the construction and from the coatings aspect, which of course, is our bailiwick, customers are becoming more engaged with writing specifications for their facilities. I'm starting to see it more and more. When we first started going after the business from a marketing perspective, we were probably one of the only contractors on the web. When I look at it now, there's dozens of people talking about it. But there's always a lot of people talking about it. There's only a few people that can actually do it, you know? But we're excited about it because one of the exciting aspects of it is that there's not that many things that come along that are new under the sun from an industry perspective. And cannabis happens to be one of them. Other than traditional business, it shows a much more vertical trend line than some other things that we get involved in.
"The Four Questions" [Non-Technical]
Jack: All right, Michael, we have a little tradition on this show as part of the whole thing is to give people education, but the other part is to introduce people within the industry to other people in the industry. So, we have a set of four questions we ask everybody. The first one being, what is your preference for team or sport? What sports ball do you watch?
Michael: I'm a big Mountaineer supporter. West Virginia Mountaineers. Go Mountaineers! So, anything West Virginia Mountaineers, I'm all about it.
Paul: Excellent. So, I guess the next question then, I guess we can say part of it is, what's the favorite thing you like to watch? We know part of it is going to be anything West Virginia. Is there another show or a movie that you like to indulge in?
Michael: I love movies. I actually, believe it or not, I did put out a list of top 100 movies one time. I don't have it at hand, but a couple of my favorites. I love action movies. Training Day. Love Denzel Washington. But also Rain Man with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise. Definitely one of my all-time favorites.
Paul: Two good ones there.
Jack: Well, actually, Rain Man was one of the most quoted movies in my house with my father. But not for the reasons that you would think. I mean, "K-Mart Sucks" was said pretty frequently in my house. So, with that being said, if you play baseball, they play a song of the player's choice when they walk up to bat. Or if you're a wrestler, they play a certain song when you walk into the ring. If you had a walk-up song, what would it be?
Michael: Yeah, I mean, there's so many, but I have to go with "Enter Sandman."
Paul: Oh, Metallica guy. There we go.
Jack: Right up Paul's alley. That is his favorite band of all time, I think, right?
Paul: Yeah. I think I've been to, oh, probably more than ten concerts by now. Love Metallica.
Jack: That's awesome. So, then the last one to round out our question of four…
Paul: What's your hobby?
Michael: Well, believe it or not, I'm still an old-school baller. I'm 63 years old, but I just was at a three-point contest this summer. 125 entries, most of them pros and college players. I made the second day. Hit five out of five on my first rack. But don't ask me to play defense anymore.
Paul: So, can we call you LeBron?
Jack: No, he can shoot.
Paul: Oh, okay. Okay.
Jack: That's awesome, man.
Michael: I've got a lot of nicknames, but not all of them are appropriate for this.
Jack: Hey, I still play from time to time, too. And I get reminded by my wife that I'm too old to play a young man's game every time I come home, and I'm icing everything up.
Paul: I told you that ten years ago.
Jack: Michael, thank you very much for coming on today.
Michael: Yeah, well, I hope you got all your questions answered, everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask. And I appreciate you guys having me.
Paul: Michael, just if anybody's looking to reach out to you directly, what's the best way to get you? A website? You have an email or anything you want to put out?
Michael: You can find me at our website, surfacetechnologyinc.com. You can also call us at 800-PROJECT. And we will respond within 24 hours.
Jack: Obviously, you can tell if you've listened to this thing for the last however long. This is a very educated and knowledgeable contractor, and this is exactly what you want to find when you're doing an industrial resinous flooring installation. Don't get just the guy who paints houses or even the tank painters. Sorry, tank painters.
Paul: This is different. This is a different world.
Jack: It is. And I've been on a job with the tank painter trying to do a floor, and it took years off my life. Years off my life. Yeah. So, anyway, that's it for Paul and I. I think "Tech Tips" are coming up next and, just in the spirit of the whole episode, check you later, bro.
Jamie Valdez: You have questions. They have answers. This is "Tech Tips."
Anthony Allegra: Hi, my name's Anthony Allegra. I'm a Product Line Manager for Carboline. I'm going to talk to you today about some tech tips for installing urethane cements. Before you get started, it's important to check with the manufacturer to check for proper surface profile requirements. This is the CSP ratings that you might see. So, most of the urethane cements are somewhere in the neighborhood of three to five. But they're going to have specific instructions on that, so you want to double-check with them before you get going on anything. Once you've got that surface profile, you want to make sure that all latents and surface contamination has been removed. This is the salt and pepper look, the exposed aggregate within the concrete. So, and then also checking for surface contamination such as oils, greases, fats, things like that. Especially if it's an aged piece of concrete. Once you've got the surface profile figured out, you just want to make sure you do a plastic sheet test to test for moisture vapor transmission. This is done with ASTM D4263, which is simply a plastic sheet taped down to the surface of the concrete for about 24 hours. You check for moisture under that plastic sheet. And it's a go-no-go. So, if you've got no moisture, you proceed to your floor. And if you do, you document that and take pictures. That way, you're covered if there was ever an issue in the future. Last thing you want to do before you get started on application is check that all drains or transitions to other rooms have a keyway cut into them, which is what we call honoring the joint or an anchor joint. This is simply a quarter-inch by quarter-inch groove cut into the concrete floor so that you have a point for that coating to grab onto, which will help it handle the stresses of any sort of traffic or impact later on down the road.